TRANSCRIPT

 

Programme(s)	R4 The World Tonight
Date & time	Thursday, 3rd April 2008  22.11
Subject/Interviewee	NATO - David Miliband

 

Robin Lustig, Presenter: Well, I took stock tonight of where NATO has got so far in this summit with the foreign secretary, David Miliband, and we started on Ukraine and Georgia. Was the decision not to start them on the road to membership a victory for Russia?

David Miliband:  I don't see how a decision which starts with the words "Ukraine and Georgia will become members of NATO" can be described as a victory for a position which has rejected that. So I don't think this is a quote unquote victory for Moscow, but equally I don't think it's a stick in the eye for Moscow. It's not been intended as such. This is about respecting the aspirations of two important countries. It's about recognising the path of democratic and political and economic reform that they're on and the aspirations of the majority of their people to become members of the NATO alliance. And I think that that can be a force for stability on the borders of Russia rather than a force for instability.

RL: If there had been no objections from Moscow, there would have been more offered to Ukraine and Georgia today, wouldn't there?

DM: I don't think that's right. That is to make this issue of the Membership Action Plan, the MAP that is the great talk of all the corridors but will probably confuse many listeners, that is to make this issue of MAP into a great totemic struggle. But a Membership Action Plan is just that, a Membership Action Plan, and there's a clear commitment to engage in that over the next few months and to make sure that those countries are ready. There are serious issues for those countries. You'll have covered the political situation in Georgia. There are issues in the Ukraine too. Those will need to be addressed. But I think what you're seeing here is an outward-looking alliance, redefining its role for the 21^st century.

RL:   You are saying, then, are you, not today, not this year, not next year, but one day Ukraine and Georgia will be - not might be, will be - members of NATO?

DM:  Well, I've just got out of my pocket the statement that was issued not just by me but by far more important people than me, by our leaders, and it says: "We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO." And the answer is yes, they will become members.

RL:   Let me then ask you about Afghanistan. Obviously Britain has major interests in the NATO involvement in Afghanistan. Are you satisfied with what's emerged on that?

DM:  I think we've made real progress on that. First of all, the unity of the NATO alliance; secondly, the recognition that this is a long-term commitment; thirdly, the announcement by President Sarkozy: the commitment of troops on his part. There's a danger in the discussion of troops that we become overly focused on a military solution when there isn't a military solution in Afghanistan, but nonetheless it's welcome what President Sarkozy has announced, and then the releasing of American troops to come down and help in the south.

RL: Just on the troops question, though: how much difference to British troops in Afghanistan does the French commitment make?

DM: I think it will make a difference, because what this will do is release 2,500 Canadian troops to stay there and it will also release some American troops to come and help. But I think that this is an important step forward, because British people want to know that the burdens are being shared and shared properly.

RL: From your point of view, then, a good day's work?

DM: Well, it's not for politicians to pat themselves on the back, but I think that the unity of purpose here, not just NATO but the UN and the EU all represented round that table, countries wanting to join, and a real sense of seriousness of purpose, not glib solutions but real solutions, I think that does make this an important 59^th meeting of the NATO Council.

RL: For both Mr Bush and Mr Putin, this is the last time they will be at a meeting of this kind, certainly as presidents. We don't know whether Mr Putin might come as a prime minister. How do they emerge, do you think, in the NATO context?

DM: It's fair to say that NATO is better-equipped in 2008 for the challenges of a post-Cold War, post-9/11 world than it was eight years ago. In respect of relations with Russia, the truth is they've had ups and downs, and we don't yet know what President Putin's going to say when he comes tomorrow, but the indications are that he's not going to be in Khrushchev style banging his shoe on the table; he's going to be in rather more emollient mode. I hope that is followed through in the new Medvedev administration as well.

RL: But you haven't succeeded in persuading him that he has nothing to fear from NATO?

DM: Well, let's wait and see what he says. Russia's different than it was eight years ago and so is NATO. And I think that we've got to believe in engagement with Russia. And its relationship with Europe and its relationship with NATO need to go together.

RL:   The foreign secretary, David Miliband.

Ends