TRANSCRIPT

Tina Bangs, Presenter:  A delegation of British Muslims is heading to Afghanistan for a week long visit aimed at fostering good relations between the two countries.  Sadiq Khan, the Labour MP for Tooting in South West London, is among those taking part.  He told our reporter, Jane Andrews, what they hoped to achieve.

Sadiq Khan, MP for Tooting:  The trip we're going on is a delegation of Brits all of whom are of Muslim faith, all of whom are successful in different walks of life, whether it's youth work or commercial lawyers or in the education field.  And we're going to Afghanistan (a) to... to see for ourselves the... the work that's been going on there in the last few months and years, but, secondly - and probably more importantly - so that the Afghanis can meet people from the West, you know, Westerners, and... so they can realize that... that in the West there are many Muslims; many of whom, dare I say it, are very successful.  I think one... one of the things and one of the purposes we're keen to get across to Afghanis is that it's possible to be Muslim, it's possible to be a Westerner, and it's possible to be successful.  So, we're trying to bust some of those myths that may exist in the Afghani society.

Jane Andrews, Reporter:  You are hoping that the visit will also reach out to Muslims here in the UK, is that right?

SK:  One of the things that's concerned us is the fact that all the hard work that's going on in Afghanistan where Britain has taken a leading role isn't being relayed back in the UK.  I mean, we understand the pressures of news time and so, although we see very important stories about the military work that the Brits and the NATO forces are doing, we don't get to see the other side.  We don't get to see, for example, the work we're doing in schools in Afghanistan, we don't get to see the work we're dong in universities and the work we're doing helping farmers.  And so what we thought we'd do is... and... and all... all of those going on the delegation - none of them I hasten to add are [?] on message or necessarily Government supporters - all of them are going with an open mind to see for ourselves the difference that the work we're doing in... in Afghanistan is making, so we can come back and... and, you know, report back to, you know, Brits over here, many of whom are taxpayers, many of whom are contributing towards the work in Afghanistan, to report back to what's going on.

JA:  Do you think you'll come across Afghans who automatically have a negative attitude towards the UK?

SK:  Well, we're... we're going with an open mind.  I wouldn't... I wouldn't want to prejudge Afghanis, but the concern that we all have, all... all of us in the delegation, is just like here in the UK there are some people who try and cast the events of the last few months and years as somehow a war and a clash of civilisations with the West against Islam.  Similarly, I have no doubt, we've seen the images on the internet, that in Afghanistan and elsewhere an image is portrayed of this being a struggle of Islam against the West, and what we're keen to get across, all of us who, you know, volunteered to go on this trip, all of us are really proud about being Brit-... being British, and in our British-ness all of us have a connection and are practising Muslims, and... and we feel comfortable in... in the various identities we have.  And we want to get across to the Afghanis that actually look, if you are being told this propaganda about the West being evil, about the West, you know, being heathens, about the West being anti-Muslims, just ain't true and we are living proof and living examples of the success story of the UK and the West.  And I think, you know, talking in generalisations and stereotypes doesn't help either the Afghani people or the Brits, and I... I... I passionately believe and so do all the people on the delegation that this people to people connection, what... what the academics call 'soft power', is about ordinary citizens meeting each other all around the world.

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TRANSCRIPT

Simon Mayo, Presenter:  Now a delegation of British Muslims is currently on tour of Afghanistan. They are there to foster links between the country and the UK Muslim community and to see for themselves what life is like for ordinary Afghans.  The trip, which is sponsored by the Foreign Office, has seen them travel outside Kabul to meet a variety of people, including projects funded by the UK and British troops. Sadiq Khan MP is leading the group of five and he joins me now on the line from Kabul.  Hello, Sadiq.

Sadiq Khan, Labour MP, Tooting:  Hello Simon. Are you okay?

SM:  Yes, doing well. What have been your impressions of Afghanistan?

SK: Well I mean what surprised my colleagues and myself most about the Afghani people is the optimism.  I mean when you read the stats and, you know, you do your research before you come it's...it really is very bleak and very depressing and, you know, things here aren't particularly but when you see these young kids, boy and girl, boys and girls and their parents and their grandparents, the optimism, not just inside Kabul but outside, is frankly something that beggars belief and it really is a humbling experience.

SM:  And what is the message that you're....that you're taking there from....from this country?

SK: Well the thing that's really surprised us the most is....is the lack of knowledge the Afghani population have about the West.  I mean they see the West as the (?), as non-Muslims, as these heathens who aren't necessarily friend but more foe. And when they find out that a) that's not true but b) actually the West is people like me. It's people like, you know, the leading lawyers we've got here with us. It's people like the leading teacher who we've got with us.  People who are experts in the UK but also happen to be Muslim and are really successful.  So when you tell them "Look, there's (?) like us in the UK, you know, there are other parliamentarians, we are successful journalists, we've got successful teachers, we've got successful doctors, they find it hard to believe. And then they say....they say to us - and I'm obviously speaking in generalisations - look don't judge us by the one or two terrorists and odious people that do horrible things in the name of Islam. And we're sort of actually hold on a sec., the guy who you know drew the cartoon in Denmark and, you know, the Dutchman who made the film aren't what the West is about.  Actually there are more non-Muslims condemning those people. There are more non-Muslims who want to help you than in fact Muslims. So that's been really eye-opening for us to try and sort of bust some of those myths that exist about the West.

SM:   Is it possible for you to say on the basis of this trip and what you've learnt, Sadiq, that British involvement in Afghanistan is making any difference to the lives of the ordinary Afghans you've been meeting?

SK: Well one of the things that the Foreign Office were keen to do - and we met all five us Lord Malloch Brown last week and we're meeting David Miliband when we get back - is...I mean Malloch Brown was....was unbelievably clear.   He said to the delegation "Look, I want (?).  I want you to tell me from your perspective the upsides and the downsides of what we're doing in Afghanistan.  There are many people, Muslims and non-Muslims - and you and I both know that - who have got concerns about what's happening in Afghanistan and we're keen to see for ourselves. I mean we hope the first of many such visits because we want to build dialogues people to people between Afghanistan and British citizens but also we want the Afghani population to know it's not just British Muslims who want them to do well and to prosper and also there are many non-Muslims in the UK and West.....West who want them to prosper. And I tell you what there are people on this delegation - and we're all pretty independent-minded thinkers, none of us are patsys in anybody's definition of the word - there are a couple of us on the delegation who, you know, have questions about, you know, the presence of military in the southern province, about the upsides and downsides, and all of us have been inspired, not just I started with the inspiration that the Afghani people have given us  but I tell you what, the number of civilian Brits out here doing development, doing teaching work, doing counter-narcotics work, doing stuff for the Afghani people, risking their lives, really is humbling, Simon and I'm terribly proud as a parliamentarian but I tell you what, the other four Brits on this delegation, all of whom are of Muslim faith, are terribly, terribly proud of being British. And it's funny, you know, the further you get away from the UK, the more proud you are of being British.

SM: Is this sacrifice of the British military out there at the moment with two more deaths this week in Helmand, is it worth it?

SK: That's a really tough question, Simon.  I mean one of the....one of the questions that constituents ask me and one of the questions that kids asked the teachers on this delegation, (?), one of the questions about the charity that (?) works for asks them is questions like that.  All I can say, I mean I've seen with my own eyes and we've all seen with our own eyes the fruits of some of the work we've been doing over the last six years.  I mean simple figures like the amount of money we've given and the number of deaths, tragic deaths that there have been of British soldiers I'm afraid don't do what we're doing out here justice.  I don't wish to be flippant, sanctimonious about what we're doing here but you can really see.....you can literally see the fruits of our harvest. Whether it is, you know, young people going to school or whether it is drug addicts coming off their addictions in clinics we have helped fund, whether it is....we met today the Ayatollah of Afghanistan, a Shia gentleman, working closely with Sunnis. You think the work we do in Britain now is a model to go forward. We've seen computers given to Daddle Ulm (?). Daddle Ulm has been.....is one of the motivations founded 88 years ago.  Many of the Presidents have come from that.  (?) has internet connections which the British Council is helping to facilitate so they can learn about the West a bit more. They can learn about English and learn about Muslims in the West but also non-Muslims. And one of the things we're keen to get across - and it comes better frankly from people like me than from non-Muslims -  is actually you've got friends in the West who are non-Muslims who are really keen to see you do well.

SM: You....can I ask you specifically about the issue of women's rights, Sadiq?  You've met with some Afghan female MPs. Tell us what the situation is as far as women in Afghanistan is concerned?  Making progress there or not?

SK: Well two of our delegation are successful British women of Muslim faith. One of them's a commercial, a commercial buyer, one of them's a human rights activist and they....and that is an issue of concern to me and all of the other four of us as well.  Progress has been made.  I think the starting point though, the base was so appallingly low, you know,  if we've being brutally honest about this but the graph can only go in one direction. There are girls now going to school who are the first girls, you know, to paraphrase somebody else's speech, 'in a thousand generations to have gone to school, in lower or further or higher education'. The problem is this that schools are being built and other countries, what they do is we do it differently, the other countries build things and you know badge it and say that's their contribution. The problem is there aren't any teachers to teach the kids. What we have been doing, Britain, is using our aid to go through the government, local and national government, and encouraging them to build schools but also we went to Kabul University this week, which is a teacher training college, to try and get as many teachers as possible trained as soon as possible.  You know from the UK how long it takes, you know, to get teachers who are ready to be able to teach. And that's the problem. The problem is getting the bodies through the teaching colleges to become teachers. There is queues and queues and queues of youngsters, boys and girls, who want to go to school but it's not just having the bricks and mortar, the physical buildings but having the teachers who can teach them. Then there's the issue of resources and making sure that it's the right sort of curriculum. There's been nothing worse than building schools, then getting teachers qualified but having a curriculum that will propagate some of the odious perversions of Islam that we've sometimes seen in some other addresses.

SM:  The Prime Minister, Sadiq, as you know is at a Nato summit and George Bush and Gordon Brown are going to push for other members to send more troops to fight the Taliban. In your opinion and the opinion of the delegation based on what you've seen is that's what is needed?

SK: Absolutely and one of the things that all of us leave this week, we've only been here eight days, I don't want to pretend that I've, you know, been here months and months and all the rest of it but one of the things that has made us tremendously proud is the effort that the British contingent is making and I hasten to add it's not just the military help we're giving. The military provide the security to enable poverty alleviation, education of people, building bridges, building schools, helping local politicians become politicians and leading their communities. And, you know, if you know there was any for example you know French listeners to your show or anybody else or something, the new countries who want to join Nato,  if they're listening, you know, the more of us that help Afghanistan a) the quicker we will get Afghanistan back on her feet but you know it's in all our interest.  You know not only is it the right thing to do but we've seen friendship and (?) being built up as a result of the help we've giving and I think that all countries in the West could benefit from that friendship.  One of the comments that in fact was made by the Head of the National Religious Council is, you know, thank you very much for all the material help your country has given us but actually this delegation and meeting with Muslims, our brothers and sisters in the West, is a sort of non-material help that we've been desperate for because we've felt really isolated and it's really good to see that there are Muslims, you know, four and a half odd thousand miles away. And I'd say to Nato colleagues or those who are members of Nato that, you know, frankly you know aren't doing as much as we're doing or as much as they could do, in fact it's in all of our interest to do more. But you know we can't pretend we didn't know what's happening in Afghanistan. The poverty is heart-breaking but the confidence of these people and the optimism is a cause for all of us to want to help and do more than we're already doing.

SM: Are Nato forces in Afghanistan winning?

SK: That's a tough question. There are some parts of Afghanistan that are doing really well. I met somebody two days ago who fled Afghanistan during the Soviet invasion and I've met many people like this and who came back as refugees from Pakistan.  I've met ex-pats come from America, from France, who say although there are problems in some of the southern provinces, this country is the construction and the booming economy is you know infinitely better than it was back in those days, even you know some left more later on.  Security is a big issue. The Nato forces and the ISAF forces help provide the security that helps aid workers and others to go in. The problem is with the best will in the world....with the best will in the world innocent people have died in the last few, you know, months and years and what we've got to be careful about is allowing the doom merchants and those who want to bring division to Afghanistan and you know believe that terror is the way forward to use that as propaganda. That's why trips like this are invaluable because you know the point that we've been making as well, any innocent death is really sad and unacceptable and something for regret but please our intention is noble. You know nobody wants to be here for reasons other than to help you.  And when that comes from once again people like the five of us on this trip, I think it's received in a way that it would be received differently if it was received by people of a different faith and I think that's important. And that's one of our strengths as a country, one of the reasons why the reception we've got this week has been amazing. Whether it's been clerics, whether it's been parliamentarians male and female, whether it's been members of the (?) or students at universities or youngsters who have asked some really interesting questions about the West, it's been a really, really good response.  And some of the prejudices that exist today, and you can't blame a country where illiteracy is so high and where there is very little medium of communication, but you know some of the prejudices that exist about the West, about you know all of us who are non-Muslims are forced to give to Christianity, about you know being encouraged to draw blasphemous cartoons, you know we've got to bust some of those myths because you know globalisation as it is if there is an adverse form of Islam in the mountains of Afghanistan it doesn't take long for that to spread through the streets of London.

SM:  So when you come back briefly if you could Sadiq, when you come back your message to the British Muslim community and the wider UK population is what?

SK:  All five of us return to the UK more proud of being British than when we left the UK. Afghanistan is a country that we can't turn our backs to. Not only must we build links with Afghanistan politically and militarily but also it's the cultural links and it's the educational links.  There needs to be a medium by which we can have a dialogue with....you know they're not just my Muslim brothers. They're yours as well and I think the important thing I'd take back to the UK is you know this is a struggle that we can overcome. It will take some time but what I'd say to, you know, British citizens is that it's in our interest to invest in this short and medium term but in the long-term as well and I hope that message is being received by Nato as well.

SM: Sadiq Khan, thanks very much for speaking to us today.

SK: A pleasure as always, Simon. Take care, mate.

SM: Thank you. That's Sadiq Khan, Labour MP for Tooting joining us on the line from Kabul.

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