David Miliband interview with Sarah Montague on Radio 4 (11 Feb 2007)
Interviewer: Is Afghanistan a failed state? Lord Ashdown reckons it is; that's what he said at the weekend. If it has failed then should we still be there? However important it might be for the NATO mission for us to be there eighty seven British soldiers have been killed since 2001, so is it in our interests to stay?
The Foreign Secretary David Miliband is just back from a trip to the country and wrote an upbeat assessment of the country's prospects in an article yesterday. I asked him why his conclusion was so different from Lord Ashdown's.
David Miliband: I think that Lord Ashdown said in his interview that when he was first approached for the job three or four months ago he didn't know whether progress could be made but he'd concluded after three or four months looking at it that it was possible. There are big challenges, a big test for the international community, a big test also for the Afghan Government, but I think we are both sober about the challenges there but also determined in the belief that it's important that we're there to make a difference because without the international presence then Afghanistan certainly would be a failed state.
Interviewer: Is it a failed state now?
David Miliband: I don't believe it is a failed state; there are five million kids in school, five million refugees have come back to the country, two thirds of the country now gets health care. Those are all important aspects of progress.
Equally the challenges are immense; I mean this is one of the poorest countries on earth, one hundred and seventy fourth out of a hundred and seventy eight countries in terms of its poverty. And so there are clear aspects of that country in terms of its economic development, but also its security, that are a real problem. Down in the south of Afghanistan where there are British troops in Helmand the Government hasn't had a presence for a very long time and we're trying with the Afghan Government to establish a presence. So there are massive challenges but I think it's important that we support the Afghan Government and I think it's important that we both raise our game in 2008.
Interviewer: But there must be a question that you keep asking yourself which is, for all that you know Afghanistan has its problems and it would be nice to help, is it in our interest to help? Why ...
David Miliband: I think that ...
Interviewer: ... should we be losing lives over this?
David Miliband: ... well that's exactly the right question, it's not just whether or not we've got a moral interest in being there but it's whether we've got a national interest. And I think that does come back to the fact that in the 1990s up to 2001 Afghanistan was the incubator for al Qaeda; the Taliban Government provided a safe haven for al Qaeda which it exploited to monstrous effect, and that is the fundamental reason why Afghanistan is different from other poor countries. Elsewhere in the world we've got development programmes and other educational and health programmes. In Afghanistan we've got a security requirement as well as a development requirement. (Indistinct) ...
Interviewer: So what happens if we pulled out?
David Miliband: I think that Afghanistan would become a failed state if the international community pulled out. It's evident to me that not just do we have a interest in being there but we're making a difference. Without the international community the gains, fragile in some ways, challenged in others ...
Interviewer: Yes but what I, I'm specifically asking, forgive me, what happens to us; if we pulled out what (indistinct) what harm is it to the UK?
David Miliband: ... well I think it would help precipitate quite dangerous, even more dangerous, insecurity in Afghanistan, and that does lead back 'cause ...
Interviewer: And in the UK?
David Miliband: ... yes I do believe that the ability of (indistinct) of Afghanistan to become a haven for terrorism does come back eventually to the UK. Remember seventy per cent of terrorist incidents in the UK have their origins back in Pakistan. Now Pakistan and the Afghan border, the, two thousand five hundred miles of the Pakistan Afghan border, are absolutely central to our security. We know that al Qaeda moves across the Afghan Pakistan border with too much ease, we know that that is the incubator of international terrorism, and we know that it's struck with devastating consequences in the UK. So I do believe that we have an aspect of national interest rather than just moral interest in being there.
Interviewer: But if we see that why is it that our NATO allies, so many other (indistinct) European countries, notably the likes of Germany, don't see it in the same way such that they as, are prepared to do as much as we are doing in Afghanistan?
David Miliband: Well it's certainly true that we're the second largest contributor (indistinct) in Afghanistan in terms of troops. I think it's worth noting in respect of Germany, which you do mention, for the first time in sixty years Germany has sent its troops outside its own country. I mean for sixty years we've actually wanted German troops to stay within Germany for obvious reasons. But I think you're right to say that we do need the whole of the international community including European countries to step up, not just in terms of troops, I do think it's really important that people understand that just sending troops is not the answer, we also have a massive issue to do with the Afghan Police Force which is critical to security in that country.
So there are a range of ways in which the international community needs to make its presence felt, including European countries. And the Canadians, big contributors, have made clear that they need more troops from other countries to justify their own continuing presence ...
Interviewer: And what's clear ...
David Miliband: ... that's something that's going to be important in the run up to the NATO summit in April.
Interviewer: ... yes but what's clear from your meetings last week is there's no sign that anybody's shifting on this.
David Miliband: Well I don't think that's fair actually, I think that you've got France for example talking for the first time in dozens of years about reintegrating into NATO structures, so I think there are important discussions under way. But it's (indistinct) I mean I'll be meeting Des Browne the Defence Secretary today because (indistinct) he was in Vilnius last week talking to Defence Ministers, this is an issue for both of us, and I think it's important that the pressure is kept up. But I also think it's important that we emphasise to people that troops alone are not going to be the answer, it has to be the building up of a decent society in Afghanistan that's able to cater for its own affairs.
Interviewer: But you'll understand why people keep asking this question about Afghanistan because they look at what Britain has done so far and we have the President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, saying that British troops have made the security situation in Helmand worse. We have a poppy crop that's bigger than it's ever been, and one wonders what difference we've made, what positive difference we've made.
David Miliband: Well I think we have made an enormous difference without prejudice to the fact that the challenges remain immense. Let's just take the two issues that you've raised.
In respect to President Karzai he said to me privately, and to the Prime Minister actually when we met, the two of us met him in January, and he repeated again publicly on Wednesday or (indistinct) on Thursday of last week, that he believes he's been misquoted about this, that he has huge respect and aDavid Milibandiration for the work the British troops are doing all round the country.
In respect of drugs you're right to raise that. The latest UN report that came out last week showed for the first time that drug production had peaked, peaked at for too high a level, but I believe that in the end drug production reflects the level of security. If you improve security you'll get drug production down. If there's insecurity, both on the military and on the policing side, then drug production will grow. And so the issues here, economic, social, drugs and military, do fit together, and I think that British people are right to ask hard questions about them, part of the job of Government is to ask those hard questions, but it's also to come up with hard answers. And the difference is being made every day by our troops and by our diplomats and by our (indistinct) aid workers in Afghanistan when you look ...
Interviewer: But if we, if we are truly to make a difference we do have to have a better relationship with President Karzai don't we?
David Miliband: The whole international community needs a better relationship with President Karzai. That was the attraction of Paddy Ashdown's appointment which we thought would be a good idea, but we need a UN Secretary General's representative who has the confidence both of the UN Secretary General whose representative he is and of the Afghan Government, and the sooner we get that person the better.
Interviewer: Is it time that (indistinct) President Karzai went; would you like to see him go?
David Miliband: He's a democratically elected leader of Afghanistan. We are not creating a colony in Afghanistan. He was elected by millions of Afghans ...
Interviewer: But he's also seen as a man who has (indistinct) presided over a huge rise in corruption within the Afghan Government.
David Miliband: Well hang on, there's a bigger issue here, I'm making a speech tomorrow night in Oxford in honour of Aung San Suu Kyi, the jailed Burmese Opposition Leader, about democracy and about whether or not we're right despite all the difficulties in Iraq and Afghanistan to be putting ourselves on the side of democratic forces around the world. I believe we are right to put our side, ourselves on the side of democratic forces through a whole range of economic, social and military intervention. And you can't both say you want to be on the side of democracy and then say sorry Mr Karzai you've been elected by the people of Afghanistan but we don't think you should stay in office. It must be right that we say that the Afghan people should be determining their own future and that I think is the right answer to your question.
Interviewer: Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, many thanks.
The Foreign Secretary David Miliband is just back from a trip to the country and wrote an upbeat assessment of the country's prospects in an article yesterday. I asked him why his conclusion was so different from Lord Ashdown's.
David Miliband: I think that Lord Ashdown said in his interview that when he was first approached for the job three or four months ago he didn't know whether progress could be made but he'd concluded after three or four months looking at it that it was possible. There are big challenges, a big test for the international community, a big test also for the Afghan Government, but I think we are both sober about the challenges there but also determined in the belief that it's important that we're there to make a difference because without the international presence then Afghanistan certainly would be a failed state.
Interviewer: Is it a failed state now?
David Miliband: I don't believe it is a failed state; there are five million kids in school, five million refugees have come back to the country, two thirds of the country now gets health care. Those are all important aspects of progress.
Equally the challenges are immense; I mean this is one of the poorest countries on earth, one hundred and seventy fourth out of a hundred and seventy eight countries in terms of its poverty. And so there are clear aspects of that country in terms of its economic development, but also its security, that are a real problem. Down in the south of Afghanistan where there are British troops in Helmand the Government hasn't had a presence for a very long time and we're trying with the Afghan Government to establish a presence. So there are massive challenges but I think it's important that we support the Afghan Government and I think it's important that we both raise our game in 2008.
Interviewer: But there must be a question that you keep asking yourself which is, for all that you know Afghanistan has its problems and it would be nice to help, is it in our interest to help? Why ...
David Miliband: I think that ...
Interviewer: ... should we be losing lives over this?
David Miliband: ... well that's exactly the right question, it's not just whether or not we've got a moral interest in being there but it's whether we've got a national interest. And I think that does come back to the fact that in the 1990s up to 2001 Afghanistan was the incubator for al Qaeda; the Taliban Government provided a safe haven for al Qaeda which it exploited to monstrous effect, and that is the fundamental reason why Afghanistan is different from other poor countries. Elsewhere in the world we've got development programmes and other educational and health programmes. In Afghanistan we've got a security requirement as well as a development requirement. (Indistinct) ...
Interviewer: So what happens if we pulled out?
David Miliband: I think that Afghanistan would become a failed state if the international community pulled out. It's evident to me that not just do we have a interest in being there but we're making a difference. Without the international community the gains, fragile in some ways, challenged in others ...
Interviewer: Yes but what I, I'm specifically asking, forgive me, what happens to us; if we pulled out what (indistinct) what harm is it to the UK?
David Miliband: ... well I think it would help precipitate quite dangerous, even more dangerous, insecurity in Afghanistan, and that does lead back 'cause ...
Interviewer: And in the UK?
David Miliband: ... yes I do believe that the ability of (indistinct) of Afghanistan to become a haven for terrorism does come back eventually to the UK. Remember seventy per cent of terrorist incidents in the UK have their origins back in Pakistan. Now Pakistan and the Afghan border, the, two thousand five hundred miles of the Pakistan Afghan border, are absolutely central to our security. We know that al Qaeda moves across the Afghan Pakistan border with too much ease, we know that that is the incubator of international terrorism, and we know that it's struck with devastating consequences in the UK. So I do believe that we have an aspect of national interest rather than just moral interest in being there.
Interviewer: But if we see that why is it that our NATO allies, so many other (indistinct) European countries, notably the likes of Germany, don't see it in the same way such that they as, are prepared to do as much as we are doing in Afghanistan?
David Miliband: Well it's certainly true that we're the second largest contributor (indistinct) in Afghanistan in terms of troops. I think it's worth noting in respect of Germany, which you do mention, for the first time in sixty years Germany has sent its troops outside its own country. I mean for sixty years we've actually wanted German troops to stay within Germany for obvious reasons. But I think you're right to say that we do need the whole of the international community including European countries to step up, not just in terms of troops, I do think it's really important that people understand that just sending troops is not the answer, we also have a massive issue to do with the Afghan Police Force which is critical to security in that country.
So there are a range of ways in which the international community needs to make its presence felt, including European countries. And the Canadians, big contributors, have made clear that they need more troops from other countries to justify their own continuing presence ...
Interviewer: And what's clear ...
David Miliband: ... that's something that's going to be important in the run up to the NATO summit in April.
Interviewer: ... yes but what's clear from your meetings last week is there's no sign that anybody's shifting on this.
David Miliband: Well I don't think that's fair actually, I think that you've got France for example talking for the first time in dozens of years about reintegrating into NATO structures, so I think there are important discussions under way. But it's (indistinct) I mean I'll be meeting Des Browne the Defence Secretary today because (indistinct) he was in Vilnius last week talking to Defence Ministers, this is an issue for both of us, and I think it's important that the pressure is kept up. But I also think it's important that we emphasise to people that troops alone are not going to be the answer, it has to be the building up of a decent society in Afghanistan that's able to cater for its own affairs.
Interviewer: But you'll understand why people keep asking this question about Afghanistan because they look at what Britain has done so far and we have the President of Afghanistan, Hamid Karzai, saying that British troops have made the security situation in Helmand worse. We have a poppy crop that's bigger than it's ever been, and one wonders what difference we've made, what positive difference we've made.
David Miliband: Well I think we have made an enormous difference without prejudice to the fact that the challenges remain immense. Let's just take the two issues that you've raised.
In respect to President Karzai he said to me privately, and to the Prime Minister actually when we met, the two of us met him in January, and he repeated again publicly on Wednesday or (indistinct) on Thursday of last week, that he believes he's been misquoted about this, that he has huge respect and aDavid Milibandiration for the work the British troops are doing all round the country.
In respect of drugs you're right to raise that. The latest UN report that came out last week showed for the first time that drug production had peaked, peaked at for too high a level, but I believe that in the end drug production reflects the level of security. If you improve security you'll get drug production down. If there's insecurity, both on the military and on the policing side, then drug production will grow. And so the issues here, economic, social, drugs and military, do fit together, and I think that British people are right to ask hard questions about them, part of the job of Government is to ask those hard questions, but it's also to come up with hard answers. And the difference is being made every day by our troops and by our diplomats and by our (indistinct) aid workers in Afghanistan when you look ...
Interviewer: But if we, if we are truly to make a difference we do have to have a better relationship with President Karzai don't we?
David Miliband: The whole international community needs a better relationship with President Karzai. That was the attraction of Paddy Ashdown's appointment which we thought would be a good idea, but we need a UN Secretary General's representative who has the confidence both of the UN Secretary General whose representative he is and of the Afghan Government, and the sooner we get that person the better.
Interviewer: Is it time that (indistinct) President Karzai went; would you like to see him go?
David Miliband: He's a democratically elected leader of Afghanistan. We are not creating a colony in Afghanistan. He was elected by millions of Afghans ...
Interviewer: But he's also seen as a man who has (indistinct) presided over a huge rise in corruption within the Afghan Government.
David Miliband: Well hang on, there's a bigger issue here, I'm making a speech tomorrow night in Oxford in honour of Aung San Suu Kyi, the jailed Burmese Opposition Leader, about democracy and about whether or not we're right despite all the difficulties in Iraq and Afghanistan to be putting ourselves on the side of democratic forces around the world. I believe we are right to put our side, ourselves on the side of democratic forces through a whole range of economic, social and military intervention. And you can't both say you want to be on the side of democracy and then say sorry Mr Karzai you've been elected by the people of Afghanistan but we don't think you should stay in office. It must be right that we say that the Afghan people should be determining their own future and that I think is the right answer to your question.
Interviewer: Foreign Secretary, David Miliband, many thanks.
